Season 2: Episode 2

0:55 Megan Ingram (MI): As the Chief Advertising Officer for Supreme Optimization, Eric Southwell manages a team of 12 to provide a measurable ROI on over a hundred different accounts across Google AdWords, LinkedIn, and Facebook. He has over five years experience in managing digital advertising campaigns and is considered to be one of the top B2B PPC specialists. Today, he joins the podcast and he shares his digital nomad adventures and LinkedIn paid media optimization tips and tricks. How's it going, Eric? Great to have you.  

1:24 Eric Southwell (ES): It's going well, I usually say it's going good, but I believe “well” is like the correct way to say it. It is going well. And thank you very much for having me and the kind intro. 

‍1:35 MI: To kick things off, I always like to start off with people's stories and about their backgrounds and journeys. And you do have an interesting and unique one. So talk a little bit about how you ended up as a digital nomad and about your path to Chief Advertising Officer at life science, digital marketing agency, Supreme Optimization. 

1:56 ES: Yeah. This answer, I'll go a little bit more in-depth, too. Cause I do think it's somewhat interesting. So I started much more traditionally. I had a job out of school in downtown Chicago working in management consulting, and it was something that I was really proud of when I graduated college, it's kind of like the dream job. Everybody works their butt off so they can get management consulting or go work for the big four or whatever it is. And I basically spent two years working 12 hours a day. Coding these really complicated PeopleSoft systems for hospitals and big universities and stuff like that. And I got really depressed. I wasn't sleeping a lot because on the weekends, I was 25 in downtown Chicago. So on the weekends I would party with my friends and then I would get like three hours of sleep flying to San Francisco and then taking a red eye back. And I got really sleep deprived. And I was like, I don't care how high profile this job is or how much money I make. I'm just so unhappy. And I need to leave. And I had a friend who was working from home. And I said, Hey, I'm just like, how do you get to work from home? I wasn't fishing for a job or anything like that. And we talked for two hours and he ended up being like - we can hire you. We have this like the absolute lowest of the low entry level, bottom feeder job. But you get to work from home. And it was a third of what I was making in Chicago. And I was like - done, I'll take it. And so I basically got a job, I didn't even really know what the company did. And it's pretty funny. The company was a dating advice company, and they sold a product called the Girlfriend Activation System and yeah, and I was their Affiliate Manager. And so I managed all of the people who sent this offer out to their email lists and stuff like that. It wasn't really the right fit for me in terms of the industry. But I basically understood digital marketing after working there for about nine months. And one of the things I noticed is that the biggest checks I was cutting as an Affiliate Manager was to the Media Buyers. So the people who were really good at PPC and Google Ads and Facebook Ads, and I was like, you know what? I'm like 25, 26. I can learn this. It's not too, too hard. So I bought this $40 Udemy course or something like that and started teaching myself Google Ads. And then I started hitting up friends. Like my buddy owns a dentistry in Austin, and I was like, Hey, who's running your Google ads? And he's like, oh yeah, this company is doing it. And I said, well, can I match whatever they're paying, and then I'll run it. And he's like, sure. So I just started hitting on my network and getting a couple of really small deals to get practice. And then after I got a little better, I messaged my buddy Sheldon who runs Supreme. He does SEO and builds websites. And I was like, Hey, do you have anyone who does PPC? And he said no - we have a few accounts, but I just outsource it. So I was like, Oh, can I come run it? So he paid me $15 an hour, he wasn't really making any money on this deal. So it wasn't like he had a bunch of money to give me, and I wanted to get paid to learn. And so it was like the best opportunity ever for me. So I went in making 15 bucks an hour and then eventually I got 20 and eventually 25 and then I got put on salary. But for me, I got to work from home, and now I'm still at Supreme. It's been like six years now. And right now we have 12 full-time PhD strategists who are helping us run these accounts. We have over 200 accounts between Google, LinkedIn and stuff like that. So it's grown quite a bit. And then I also have a side agency where I run a lot of traffic and stuff like that, as well. Yeah, that's kind of my quick life story.  

5:45 MI: And I love how that shows how flexible and how you can make your digital marketing career your own. I love hearing stories like that where you found something that you thought could be a skill and kind of turned it into a career. So that's really cool.  

6:01 ES: Yeah, I agree. And just kind of like adding onto that point, I think a lot of people are really scared to make a hundred percent pivot. Where you go from - I was doing operations and tech consulting to all of a sudden I'm a digital marketer doing Google Ads and stuff like that. It's just completely different, you know? So it's something where I put in, I measured all the hours of learning and I put in like 250 hours of Google Ads learning in three months. And I hired an accountability partner to help out and stuff like that. It was like the best decision I ever made. And honestly, this digital marketing stuff, it's not that hard. Anyone can go from knowing nothing to knowing a lot in a really short period of time, relative to if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant, like those are like multi-year barrier of entries, but you can have a really good living doing digital marketing and the learning curve is low and they don't teach it in college. So the supply of people who have the skills is low as well, you know,  

6:58 MI: Yeah, I've been in digital marketing for over 10 years, and I can tell you like five different types of digital marketing that I've done. Just even being like paid media, and strategy, and analytics and like there's all these various different career paths. So even if paid media isn't your thing, there's a lot of different directions.  

7:18 ES: Yep. A hundred percent completely agree.  

7:22 MI (voiceover): There's no one path to becoming a digital marketer. I've seen and I've heard a lot of different people's stories about how they came into digital marketing, how they got their first entry. And what I really love about Eric and other stories like him is that he was unhappy. He wasn't in a career that was really making him feel motivated and he just wasn't being his best self. And so he looked inward and looked at the things and the skills that he does well and found something that worked for him. So, I really encourage other people out there too. It's not just one thing. Really take a look at what are the things you like and what are the things that you don't, and maybe it's digital marketing, maybe it's not, but when you look at those things in that way, it can often lead you down paths that are just really exciting.  

‍8:17 MI: So you have a fun digital nomad story. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that and talk a little bit about what you enjoyed the most from your digital nomad experiences and some of the lessons that you learned. 

8:30 ES: Yeah. So after I got solidified with a core group of clients, and I would say, not making a ton of money. It'd be like $3,000 a month or whatever. When I had some retainers and I was making my 15 bucks an hour, I was like, well, this money goes a lot further in Indonesia and Morocco and all these other places. And I basically didn't resign my lease. I was living in Austin at the time and I was like, I'm just going to go backpacking. And I think one of the big lessons there is just how much further your money goes in other countries and how strong the US dollar is, and maybe was, we’re printing quite a bit of money right now. But I mean, at the time, and still today, if you go to Indonesia and you have $3,000 a month income, you live like a king out there. I mean, your meals are a dollar or two, the same in Mexico. There's so many places you can go. So I traveled the world for about four years, total. I think I've been to about 40 different countries. I've been to most continents. I haven't been to Australia or Antarctica yet. But I've been to pretty much every other continent, all the major countries I've been to. And traveling, it's just in my DNA. It's something where I can never sit still in one place for too long. And I love just being out of my comfort zone and doing it. It's just kind of like who I am. It's not something I had to really actively push myself to do. It's just kind of like who I am. In terms of lessons learned, right? I learned a lot of really big things and I also learned a lot of really dumb things that I probably should have realized and didn't need to travel to do it. One thing that I think is pretty interesting though, is that being American is like getting a cheat code in life or just being dealt with pocket aces in poker. And I didn't realize this until I traveled. Your passport gets you everywhere. And every single country speaks English because that's how they make money, because that's where all the tourism dollars come from. So even if you're in Bali or something like that, all the people you talk to, they speak English. If you're in Ecuador, if you're in France, they might not love speaking it. They might appreciate it if you spoke in their native language, but everyone speaks English. And also, I didn't realize how restrictive other people's passports were. When I was in Morocco, I was talking to my friend Mohammad, who I met there. And he was like, you realize how amazing it is that you're American? My Moroccan passport can't get me anywhere. And I didn't realize that. And he's like, yeah, I can go to like three countries without having to go through some crazy border patrol, why are you here? So I think if you're American, you're so fortunate to be able to travel and to be able to travel easily, both with your money going far, and also being able to speak English. Those are things that never would have ever occurred to me in my entire life unless I traveled. And then I'll say, one stupid thing that you might be like - duh, Eric, how is this a lesson that you learned or whatever? But how foods in different cultures and geographic regions are representative of the available resources. I know that sounds really dumb, but when I go to Peru, they all eat ceviche, which was a thing you could get for 50 cents on any street corner. Cause they just have this abundance of fish and lemons, you know? And when you go to India, they have all these spices. So they make these curries with all this turmeric. And so that when I was in Morocco, the fruits were amazing. Same in Israel. Israel had great fruits like figs. And so I've grown an appreciation when I go to the store now and I look in the produce section. Where did this fruit come from? Or no wonder avocados are $4 here. We have to import them. But when I was living in the Canary Islands, I had an avocado tree in my yard. And that was like dropping a hundred avocados a day. And I thought I was the richest person on the planet. And so I've actually grown a big appreciation for trying different foods. And I love so many different cultures' foods. Like one of my favorite foods is Ethiopian food actually. 

12:46 MI: One of the things being in Washington, DC. I've even been able to try a lot of different foods domestically just from being here. And I love what you're saying. Like trying different foods in new places is an awesome thing.  

12:57 ES: It's amazing. And you're lucky cause you live in DC and that's one of the reasons why people love DC, New York, LA. It's like you have this abundance of culture. And with that comes like really good food.  I think I've grown a new appreciation for food which I think we all love food. I could go on for hours about all the things I learned, but those are just like a couple of stupid things and a couple of cool things about some things I learned.  

13:24 MI (voiceover): I'm not going to sit here and list for you all the reasons why I am personally a big advocate for pro work from anywhere and digital nomad lifestyle. But as Eric just explained in his own story, and there's many others like there out there that have had just incredible journeys. Being a digital nomad, so to speak. It really is an incredible opportunity. If your organization allows you to take advantage. Not only just as a digital working professional, but also as an individual and as a person, you just learn so much. And so, it was really cool for him to share some of his own experience about the things that he learned from a culture perspective while he was away. And some of the ways that it's just really is this incredible opportunity. If you're lucky to be able to work from anywhere and be a digital nomad. And to really just take advantage of that.  

‍14:26 MI: Awesome. Well, give me one cool story from your digital nomad experience that you'll never forget and why?  

14:33 ES: Yeah. This one was tough. I thought a lot about this because I've had so many amazing experiences. I mean, like Oktoberfest in Munich was a blast. I saw the Northern lights when I was in Norway. And doing cruises and stuff like that. When I was actually in Norway in the winter, it was really cool. I think the best experiences that always come to mind kind of fall into two categories, maybe three, one is like just being astounded by nature. That always is huge. The other is the people that you meet. I just thought I was the most happy being really deeply ingrained in really awesome cultural experiences. And then I think the last one is whenever you're alone and have these long moments of solitude and overcoming a big challenge. I did this hike to the top of a volcano when I was in Indonesia and when I got to the top, I just started crying because the sun was rising. It was like a grueling 12 hour hike. I guess I'll tell the one specific story that really jumps out to me - I was in Indonesia, Bali. I was actually by myself, completely. I did a lot of solo travel and I got scuba certified and I was living on this tiny little island and this tiny little hut by myself for four days. And everyday I dove twice a day and it was the most amazing coral reef. And I saw so many different underwater animals and when you're underwater, you just feel like you're in an alien world almost, and they don't care about what's going on on the surface. There's no wifi down there, so it's not like you're updating Instagram every two seconds. You're just in this complete meditative state. And in this complete world that will continue to exist, even if we don't and has been around for millions or thousands of years, depending on what the species is. I was just really proud of myself by the end, because I was on the other side of the world. And I spent a lot of time journaling and reading and I got scuba certified. And, I just think about that all the time. Like just how special that moment was. And this is a combination of being alone and overcoming obstacles. And my parents were never adventurous. They never really left the States either. Doing something that I've never done before and overcoming it. So that's like my one thing and now scuba is something I do all over the world. So that’s one of the many things that stands out.  

‍17:12 MI: That's awesome. That's really cool. Obviously you mentioned that you spent a lot of time in the paid media space. Want to talk a little bit more specifically about LinkedIn. Give me a few tips that can set apart your LinkedIn paid media strategy.  

17:29 ES: Absolutely. So I will give what I think is the number one best tip for LinkedIn, and this is going to be the best thing you can do, the thing to avoid - whatever it all rolls up into this. So the number one most important thing with LinkedIn is making sure that you're even supposed to be on LinkedIn in the first place. And so the thing is with Facebook, with YouTube, with Google, You can be a lot of different types of businesses and make it work. You could be a dentist and work on all three of those networks. So you can sell sunglasses and be on all three of those networks. You can be selling dog toys and be on all those three networks, but for LinkedIn, unless you have a minimum deal size of around $15,000, there is absolutely no purpose in you being on LinkedIn, because the minimum cost per click you're going to pay on LinkedIn is $6. The average is $10. And so unless you have these really big deal sizes, if you work in construction, or you sell really heavy machinery. Or our clients will sometimes sell these million dollar microscopes, those are amazing for LinkedIn, and you don't really want to go on YouTube to sell a million dollar microscope, right? So the biggest mistake I see people making is their price points are just not good enough. And that gets back to the whole B2B thing. It's a true B2B network. And it's great for that. So that's honestly number one. The hack is to make sure you should even be there in the first place.  

18:58 MI (voiceover): Goals and objectives matter. Any time you're talking about anything related to paid media and digital strategy, it starts with really examining what it is that you're trying to achieve. And especially as it relates to the larger objectives of awareness versus acquisition. Are we interested in driving more quality social followers to our page? Do we want to drive people to our social profile? Or to our website? Is conversion more important than awareness? And engagement? Really drill down to figure out what those KPIs are. How are we going to define success? For this campaign, it starts there for any LinkedIn strategy. And then you can talk about all the various tactics and get a lot more specific about optimization and testing and all those key components of a campaign. But it always starts with - What do I want to achieve? 

‍20:00 MI: Awesome. That's well said. I mean, in my experience, similarly, B2B is generally a better channel than most B2C brands. I think the deal size is right on point. It's what that revenue cost point's going to be to make that cost worth it. Looking at the opposite side, what would you say are some common pitfalls that you find that prevent people from really being successful on LinkedIn and triggering growth and success?  

20:30 ES: Yeah, I won't spend too much time rehashing what I said, because I just said it, but honestly, 90% of the time people shouldn't be there and that's the core problem, but I would say after that, another really big thing is - It's another 30,000 foot view thing. It's understanding your offer. Because I would say another huge problem I see with people marketing on LinkedIn is that they go right to a sales call. So they're like, my deal sizes are big. My audience hangs out here. That would probably be the second thing. I'll talk about the audience in a second. And then the next one is, all right, I want to get these guys on a sales call so I can talk to them. But, these two on LinkedIn, they're minding their own business. They're not on Google and they're not typing, “buy new microscope from my lab” or something like that. They could be looking for a job. They could be scrolling through their newsfeed. They could be updating their LinkedIn. They can be sharing stories or reading news or something like that. And so if you come out with them like, Hey, do you want to talk to a seller about a microscope? They're like, no, that stuff never works. And I've tried it myself for our own business. I was running a Google Ads audit on LinkedIn. Perfect audience, great offer for them, but it's too high friction. They’re like - I know I'm going to have to talk to them on the phone, and I don't want to do it. So what works extremely well instead on LinkedIn is running some type of webinar PDF, like lead with a ton of content and information and use the lead gen forms to capture their information and then warm them up on your email list or reach out to them once you have their email and we'll set a chance to download and do that. So I think the biggest pitfall I see people making is just that. They're running to a sales thing and that stuff is not fun, especially as an agency person. So I'm gonna spend my $5,000 and it's like, okay, we got two leads for the $5,000. I'm like, but I told you we could’ve gotten 500 leads if we did the ebook or the webinar, and those would have led to sales.  

22:24 MI: I had a recent healthcare client, similar thing. We kept telling them mid funnel, mid funnel, mid funnel, and they wanted to go with the high level offer and immediately when we switched - Oh, wait. Now there's like 200, 300 leads and like you're saying that people want content and you can get a lot more mid funnel opportunities that you're going to nurture, drip, et cetera, rather than giving them, oh, Hey, I want to get a trial. I want to be on a sales rep call. I want to book a meeting or those types of things. 

22:55 MI (voiceover): Don't propose before you court. I'm going to go “basic principles of life”, all right? So often we want to put the high level offer, the ultimate prize, in front of people first before we have the conversation, before we nurture them, before they understand who we are and what we're about, right? You wouldn't propose to a girl or a guy on a first date, right? So it's the same idea when we're talking about acquisition and nurturing, right? You need to have someone understand who you are and what you're about. And then, when we're talking about media targeting, that extends itself into why we, especially on LinkedIn, put mid-level funnel offers out there before we put the ultimate prize, right? Create the conversation, get an email, and then figure out whether it's email marketing, or your sales team, or find the right party within your organization, and you nurture the relationship that way. It's a much better and effective strategy for ultimately delivering more high quality leads then you're going to see if all you care about is, oh, Hey, we're just going to continue to beat and beat this high level sales offer on their face. And you know what? It doesn't work. 

24:26 ES: A hundred percent. I think if you do those two things right. You're supposed to be on LinkedIn in the first place, high price point, B2B. And then if you have a really good mid funnel irresistible offer, those are your two most important things before you ever get started with LinkedIn. And then I would say there's tons of little hacks after that, you know, to boost performance and all of that. But those are the two most important things. And the other thing is just making sure your audience hangs out there. A good example, an audience that a lot of my clients want to target is doctors. They're like, Hey, we wanna reach out to doctors. I'm like doctors have to have a reason to have LinkedIn, they have 20 job offers when, as soon as they're done with school, and they don't need a LinkedIn profile, they're not interviewing like crazy and stuff like that. And they have zero free time. So it's not like they're going to make a LinkedIn account in their spare time. They’re really tough to target there. So just making sure your audience is active and a part of LinkedIn, I think is another really important thing.  

‍25:30 MI: Awesome. Those are all really great points. And you touched on, in the beginning, a little bit about Supreme Optimization. I want to talk a little bit because I do think they have a really unique vision to life science brands. Talk a little bit about what one, how they are unique in how they target life science brands and what the most rewarding thing is about working with these types of companies.  

25:53 ES: For sure. So. It's good that I led with the story when I was making $15 an hour, because I got to Supreme and I was like, all right, I'm ready to run traffic for you guys. And like, okay, can you do keyword research? I was like, oh, absolutely. And I go to their website and their products are anti-rabbit, P-53 monoclonal antibodies. And I'm like, what is that? It should have been in Chinese because I didn't really know what it was. And so I was doing it by myself for a long time and it was unbelievably challenging. I was up till midnight, just Googling what these things were. And I still wasn't doing a great job. And so I posted an ad and I was like, Hey, I'm looking for a PhD who has life science experience, who can help me out with this Google stuff? And I hired my first PhD, like four years ago. And she was great. Her name was Mihaela. She's still with us today. And she basically went through and did all the keyword research with me. And then she helped me write all the ads. And so I brought her on client calls with me, and clients were like, oh, this is so cool that we have someone who understands our products and services. And then I just had this kind of “aha” moment where I was like, wait, Why don't we just hire like a bunch of these PhDs. They are awesome. And so then I started posting jobs. I was like anyone who has a PhD in the life science-related field, if you're sick of doing research, I'll teach you digital marketing from scratch. And it's a compelling offer because it's actually quite difficult to get out of research and getting a tenured professor job is extremely competitive and there's a lot of luck involved. Not fun when you don't have as much control of your destiny. And even if you work super hard, you can't get that job. So I have all these people who are like, I'm so sick of bench work. I would love to learn a new skill. I'd love to work from home. And so I put them through like a 3-6 month gauntlet where they get their Google Ads certification, their Google analytics certification. And now we've got like 12 PhDs who just run ads for us full time. And it's one of these things where no other company can provide that. And so we have that niche approach with it where the sales process is really easy for us. So I would say the most rewarding thing for me and the companies I work with is, one, these are the companies who are making vaccines, they’re making therapies for cancer. I take a lot of pride in doing a good job for the companies that I work with. So that's great. But I think the most rewarding thing for me is just working with these genius level PhDs. I really love everyone I work with, and they're so smart and they're so hardworking and they're so kind, and I just love my team. I love the people that we've brought on and I've gotten to meet and work with and call friends and coworkers or whatever it is. So, that's the most rewarding thing to me. It's just building that team and working with really great people.  

‍28:39 MI: That's awesome. That's really cool. Taking that to the other side. What’s challenging, what are the pain points? What can be tough about working with these types of brands?  

28:50 ES: Compliance is always really tough in the life science industry because they work with a lot of things that get disapproved on Google. I think compliance is tough in any digital marketing industry. I'm sure you face this all the time with Facebook accounts getting shut down. So I think compliance is particularly challenging. We get flagged for a lot of speculative and experimental treatments and stuff like that. If we have the words “stem cell” in there, Google is like, oh no, this is bad. You guys are selling stem cells when really that's not what the company does at all. They just have that on their website cause they researched it or whatever. So compliance is challenging. The other thing is that we take people who know nothing about digital marketing. So there's this lag between when I hire someone and how long I'm paying them, and then when we make money on them. And so hiring and training is always a big challenge. I honestly think those are the big ones. Sales and marketing isn't a big challenge for us. We're quite good at that, but it's just hiring, training, and then compliance can just be such a nightmare sometimes, you know? 

29:54 MI: The compliance part of it can be tricky, especially. I mean, I've found, especially on LinkedIn sometimes because the things they flag, your like, really?  

30:05 ES: Yeah, it's so frustrating.  

‍30:09 MI: Well, last question to close it. What is one LinkedIn trend that is really top of mind for you right now and why? 

30:17 ES: This is a great question. There's a lot. There's a lot going on with LinkedIn and I'm going to save somebody a lot of money and a lot of time. And the big trend with LinkedIn is that they are trying to basically clone Facebook with lookalike audiences, because the thing with Facebook is as soon as you start getting some conversions, you're like, alright, lookalike audience, United States go do your thing, and the Facebook algorithm is so remarkable that you just start bringing in sales for clients. And it's really impressive. LinkedIn is horrible. And the reason why is because LinkedIn has 1/10,000th, the data of Facebook people don't spend much time on LinkedIn. They spend an enormous amount of time on Facebook. The targeting on LinkedIn is already so laser precise. Like for me, I run campaigns for our agency on LinkedIn. I target everyone who works for a biotech company who works in marketing, and has a seniority level of senior or above. So it's like senior managers, CMOs, directors, VPs. Why would I need a lookalike audience? That’s literally all I want to target. So I see a lot of people go in and they use lookalike audiences and they get absolutely burned because they're so bad. So, my big thing I see happening in LinkedIn is a lot of people using the newish lookalike audiences and just getting absolutely crushed. I do think one thing that is a little exciting to me is the new conversation ads that they rolled out, maybe six months ago? 

31:50 MI: I’ve actually tested them with a client in the healthcare space. 

31:53 ES: And how did it work out?  

31:56 MI: Not particularly great from a conversion standpoint. From an engagement standpoint, there's definitely, you can make cases. But it was tricky, and again, here we get back to the high level offer versus the mid funnel offer. I think in my opinion, they were trying to make it too high and therefore they weren't hitting on any of the key KPIs that you'd want. 

31:17 ES: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'll tell you this, if you want to run LinkedIn successfully, mind those three things you said earlier with, LinkedIn being a good network, check that box, having a good middle funnel offer, check that box, having a great audience, check that box. And then on top of that, if you're unsponsored content, and you use a lead generation form, your chances of success are like 90% plus. But if you use the direct message conversation to start, those are more places I'll scale. Cause people will be like, all right, how do we scale? And it might be like, honestly, we're hitting your audience over the head on sponsored content, but we can also get them in their inbox, you know? So the conversation ads are exciting to me just because they're rolling out cool new features. I've had similar success. They're not super, super effective unless it's for an engagement purpose.  

33:04 MI: Again, I could give you all the awareness/engagement at first, but if you're looking at this as I want to convert, the only thing I care about is CPL, I don't necessarily think it's the right play for brands, in my opinion. 

33:19 ES: Completely agree with you.  

33:21 MI: Awesome. Well, again, I really appreciate you coming on today. Love sharing all the LinkedIn knowledge and digital nomad stuff, and it was a pleasure chatting with you.  

33:31 ES: Yeah, absolutely. I was gonna make a shameless plug for two things at the end there. So one, if anybody wants to learn more about LinkedIn, I do have a course called Bulletproof LinkedIn Ads. It's on adskills.com, which people who listen to this are promoted to adskills.com. I think they're the largest online traffic school. I'm a guardian of adskills as well. So if you are a part of the pro league and in our Slack channel, I can answer any of your LinkedIn questions. And the course I took there is pretty comprehensive, adding a case study to it probably this week or next, which is good. And then, the last shameless plug I'll make is due to my love of travel, and also realizing how fortunate I am to be American, I have a nonprofit with two other young ladies who also really like to travel. We're building schools in Cambodia. It's called The Hearts Company. So check out https://www.theheartsco.org/ on Google. You can reach out to me there as well. If anyone wants to get in touch.  

‍34:28 MI: Awesome. I was going to say the last question on my end was going to be any, where can people find you?  

34:34 ES: LinkedIn is the best place to find me. I keep my Instagram and Facebook PG-13 just to live my personal life. But LinkedIn, Eric Southwell, is the best place to find me. If anyone else gets in touch, talk about LinkedIn or anything like that. 

34:48 MI: Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you coming on today and it was great chatting with you.  

34:52 ES: Thank you so much for having me.